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#226 2008-10-31 11:55:03

rexwolf
Member
Registered: 2008-09-18
Posts: 231

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

Yup.

What to do if it really happened is a very big concern.  Which is why when I try the ritual, I want someone close to me present who can be there to, if nothing else, make me feel comfortable in the fact that he can bring me back.

But one day, I plan to never come back.  Hopefully it'll be because I actually changed, and don't just think I did.  <------HUGE issue.


Because Wolves deserve better

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#227 2008-10-31 18:45:24

lupen the wolf
Member
From: Kentucky
Registered: 2008-10-29
Posts: 162

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

rexwolf wrote:

Yup.

What to do if it really happened is a very big concern.  Which is why when I try the ritual, I want someone close to me present who can be there to, if nothing else, make me feel comfortable in the fact that he can bring me back.

But one day, I plan to never come back.  Hopefully it'll be because I actually changed, and don't just think I did.  <------HUGE issue.

Exactly what retual are you talking about? I've heard of lots of different ones.


ego sum quis ego sum....

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#228 2008-11-01 02:51:55

WolfVanZandt
Member
From: Broomfield, Colorado
Registered: 2004-09-01
Posts: 4721
Website

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

"Shard", like a fragment of pottery. Gaea remembers things and occasionally a fragment of her memory will "get loose" and develop into an independent memory. Or it might be intentional. A lot of "ghosts" are actually shards.

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#229 2008-11-01 04:44:28

isafos
Member
From: Dementia.
Registered: 2008-10-21
Posts: 153

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

Ok, interesting theory; now substantiate.

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#230 2008-11-01 05:33:38

WolfMontana
Member
From: Montana (surprise!)
Registered: 2006-02-08
Posts: 10145

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

I'm going to ask nice. Wolf - when you say Gaea, you mean earth right? What kind of memory? And interesting idea on the ghosts being memories, alot of folks suggest that some hauntings are just playbacks of a previous event, which works with that. Please continue.


"I like him... he says okie dokie!"
~ Dean Winchester, Supernatural
"He did so much, without kicking a single butt!"
~ Tommy Dawkins, describing Ghandi, Big Wolf On Campus

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#231 2008-11-01 10:45:41

rexwolf
Member
Registered: 2008-09-18
Posts: 231

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

Lupen,

I'm referring to my ritual; which is non-specific.  I elaborated on this elsewhere.


Because Wolves deserve better

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#232 2008-11-01 13:22:56

WolfVanZandt
Member
From: Broomfield, Colorado
Registered: 2004-09-01
Posts: 4721
Website

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

It's not a theory Isafos and you should feel free to accept it or not.

Montana, earth is a conscious entity, yes. (Isafos, if you have to have a scientific basis for that - The Mind of God by Paul Davies might serve). Her thoughts exist in space and can take on a life of their own. She remembers particular people strongly and those memories can become shards. Her mind is part of Dreamtime. It's the external part of shared Dreamtime.

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#233 2008-11-01 16:31:10

isafos
Member
From: Dementia.
Registered: 2008-10-21
Posts: 153

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

Oh lord, yes, I am most definitely going to contest this.

The Gaia hypothesis: the belief that Terra, our planet, is a superorganism. Proposed by 'Doctor' James Lovelock, purportedly a scientist. It's a hunk of science theory that has been adopted by new agers and the kind of people that sell incense at your local market, also, environmentalists who know nothing about it. But it's been almost entirely shunned by the serious scientific community, drawing the legendary Richard Dawkins as one of it's main critics. Let us not forget: environmentalists aren't scientists. They're ultimately a bunch of greenthumbs that go and chain themselves to trees, they've adopted it because it gives them an excuse to chain themselves to more trees and scream Gaia more. They don't need to know about it, it's just a theory that conforms with their pathetic attempts.

This is only a theory, because Lovelock has no tangible proof. He's just mentioned a couple of interesting, yet-unsolved anomalies and claimed that they are proof. That's the same as claiming post-mortem resuscitation as proof of god. It's a fallacy.

The Gaia hypothesis that I just mentioned, if you read about it, it's all 'biospheres' and talking about the environment working (subconsciously?) together as a whole, instead of being a number of disparate working elements that just happen to compliment some of each other, on the occasion. The wikipedia article uses so much scientific jargon that it's almost believeable to the un-educated of the subject.
Because, he has a scientific basis.

The Gaia hypothesis isn't what you're talking about.

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Planet-Is … ;id=142328
http://www.adishakti.org/our_conscious_earth.htm

Interesting how lots of these people seem to be of the opinion that 'understanding' of this concept is beyond human dimensional thought, yet somehow they've managed to write down this concept and likely make quite a bit of money out of the custom T-shirts.

You are talking about the belief that Terra--a star that made use of gravity to attract bunch of rock which was then bound together by gravity--is somehow a conscious entity, as opposed to a number of algorithms working in their own separate ways brought on by evolution of chemicals, something very scientific and interesting, but nothing that complies with your 'brain' theory.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support that, in any way, the rock we stand on could somehow have a consciousness, could somehow send out thoughts that can then somehow take on their own consciousness, or that the aboriginal Australian 'dreamtime' in in any way legitimate.

To be frank, what you've said is a load of utter, unfounded, gypsy-spiritual, nonsense.

'Scientific basis' be damned. Lovelock has a 'scientific basis' in his argument. Christian scientists claim to have a 'scientific basis'. Scientific basis is redundant in this stage of debate, it only makes for an educated theory; which is better than a standard theory, but is still only a theory.
What you're missing is the element that might even make this bollocks plausible; there is no proof.

Last edited by isafos (2008-11-01 16:35:08)

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#234 2008-11-01 17:03:50

WolfVanZandt
Member
From: Broomfield, Colorado
Registered: 2004-09-01
Posts: 4721
Website

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

Sorry, Hoss, but I'm not going to contest it. I know it to be a fact from experience and there're others that have similar experiences. I'm not debating the issue - you can feel free to accept it or not.

BTW, you left out Davies' book

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#235 2008-11-01 17:09:12

rexwolf
Member
Registered: 2008-09-18
Posts: 231

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

There is as much evidence that a "god" exists as there is to support a gaia theory.  Both beliefs have pundits who rely on emotion over logic, on what feels good, over what's proveable.

And the attitude of portraying either as reality is tired, old, and grossly non-productive.


Because Wolves deserve better

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#236 2008-11-01 17:46:56

isafos
Member
From: Dementia.
Registered: 2008-10-21
Posts: 153

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

Regardless, until someone stops attempting to label it as correct because of 'person experience'--which is absolutely wrong in it's own sense--it will always be an unsound theory, and will never be acknowledged by the scientific community, or the population at large. It will remain a tiny, ignored niche because those who think it's a 'fact' because of their experiences have such a superiority complex that they don't think they have to prove it to make it true, which can go to hell as far as I'm concerned, that is complete bull.

But, yes. Rexwolf is correct. This kind of thing has always been based entirely on 'faith': on emotion rather than any intelligent thought process or logical reasoning. Faith is, by definition, fallacy. Attempting to have someone believe you that way renders it invalid in any and all intellectual senses above your own, personal happy bubble of thought.
Still, if humans ever acknowledged the need for logic, we wouldn't be having this conversation. It's unfortunate, but because of a bunch of people who base their belief's entirely off whether or not it feels nice--which is utter crap--stealing taxpayers money and controlling society, we will never have a 100% logical population.

We will never have a 50% percent logical population, for that matter.

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#237 2008-11-01 19:53:18

WolfMontana
Member
From: Montana (surprise!)
Registered: 2006-02-08
Posts: 10145

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

lol If we kept talking about this stuff, would your brain explode from sheer incredulity and frustration? big_smile


"I like him... he says okie dokie!"
~ Dean Winchester, Supernatural
"He did so much, without kicking a single butt!"
~ Tommy Dawkins, describing Ghandi, Big Wolf On Campus

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#238 2008-11-01 23:16:39

isafos
Member
From: Dementia.
Registered: 2008-10-21
Posts: 153

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

I'd probably just read something tangible and intellectual, then follow it up with something nice and sadistic like Penn and Teller or lolfail to get me back in a good mood, then I'd be alright again.

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#239 2008-11-02 00:17:31

WolfVanZandt
Member
From: Broomfield, Colorado
Registered: 2004-09-01
Posts: 4721
Website

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

Actually, I think it frustrates you.

But I didn't say that I have faith. I said that I have experience.

You'll probably never be able to accept any thing other than what you've been taught to consider real. That's okay. At least your typical. You belong to a large group.

If it's a problem, it's your problem, not mine.

There are, on the other hand, people here that know exactly what I'm talking about. I was answering a direct question. It was an honest question and it wasn't yours. I answered it as best I know how.

You're welcome to your opinions. Enjoy them.

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#240 2008-11-02 01:44:39

isafos
Member
From: Dementia.
Registered: 2008-10-21
Posts: 153

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

That did.

You sound like you have such a superiority complex in that post that it's not even funny. Don't call me typical, that is frustrating, and ironic, considering it's coming from you, based on what you've been saying. Experience? If you have it, tell me. I'd love to hear it, because on the face of it, what you've tried to convince Montana with sounds pretty ridiculous, and that has nothing to do with any taught belief; it's common sense. Perhaps if you tried to substantiate it instead of being pig-headed, you might have a few people taking you seriously?

It's got nothing to do with what I've been 'taught to believe', it's vice versa; the thing is, you clearly believe in something, but yet you don't think you have to explain it to anyone? That has everything to do with stubbornness, self-superiority and flat-out, suspender-wearing idiocy. That doesn't 'preserve' it, it further condemns it, and it condemns you, especially with the way you chose to respond to my argument.

You wrote:

"You'll probably never be able to accept anything other than what you've been taught to consider real."

Holy shite, how stupid do you think I am? Haven't I already been building myself up as a 'fair atheist'? If you try, and do manage to come up with something tangible, then I will happily believe it. Don't try and place me inside a stereotype just because you're too damn afraid to explain yourself to anyone who questions you. "People here who know exactly what I'm talking about." Oh really? By that do you mean: "People who will believe me unquestioningly"?
That doesn't cut it.

Your response was nothing but condescending and immature, I'd have expected far better from someone with over 8000 posts.
Grow up.

Last edited by isafos (2008-11-02 01:49:26)

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#241 2008-11-02 01:19:37

WolfVanZandt
Member
From: Broomfield, Colorado
Registered: 2004-09-01
Posts: 4721
Website

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

Wrong. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. And you might have noticed that Montana isn't complaining. I also respect her right to evaluate what I say in terms of her own understanding of reality. I don't expect her to believe anything just because I said it. If she wants to check out what I said, she will.

I've always noticed that the people that say, "prove it," when given leads to check things out, never do. I gave you a reference. If you want to look into it - do.

Actually, what you don't seem to grasp is that I really don't care what you believe or disbelieve. It's just not important to me. If I cared, I might debate the issue. But I don't, so I won't. If you're really interested, check it out for yourself.

And what's really immature is the attempt to alter a person's responses by bating them. It's futile because I just don't care. It is sorta interesting how easy it is to make you foam at the mouth, though.

Oh, and 8,000 posts don't measure maturity or wisdom, just the length of time I've been on the site and the rate of posting.

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#242 2008-11-02 05:07:05

WolfMontana
Member
From: Montana (surprise!)
Registered: 2006-02-08
Posts: 10145

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

*peers at the bottom of the screen* ... singlemuslim.com? Uh?

Isafos, can I suggest something? You have said that you will not accept experience. It's not enough for you to give any validation to what folks on here say. Fair enough.

The problem is, some of these concepts are impossible to explain scientifically, because they are subjective. They are completely based on personal experience. However, there are enough folks who've had similar personal experiences along a common thread that they agree that this is something that exists, something that is very real to them, and deserves discussion.

This is a no win situation. Beating us over the head with scientific logic makes very little difference to something we know subjectively, from experience. We know it doesn't make any scientific sense. That's kinda the point. Telling us that our experience is delusional and wrong is not going to make us jump up and go 'I've been such a fool!' because we cannot deny what we know. Isn't that a lovely catch-22? The 'proof' we need to validate what we know is exactly the thing that you know can't be validated scientifically as proof.

We're speaking two different languages here. I'm hoping that we can agree to disagree, but I don't think you'll be happy with that. You want to make us wake up and get real, and that's just not going to happen. You can't undo what many of us have seen or felt, with science or logic.

I can assure you I am not going to get all religiously fundie, start screaming at people that my god/goddess/seasonal entity/vegetable is the only true god and ram a large airplane into a building (ala your signature). I'm quite harmless in my beliefs, and I don't try and convert others.

As for what Wolf was talking about, I find it fascinating. I'm curious as to this experience Wolf has had, and I'd like to hear more about it. Whether I incorporate it into my own belief system, is my choice. It'll depend on my own personal experience, and the experiences I've yet to have.


"I like him... he says okie dokie!"
~ Dean Winchester, Supernatural
"He did so much, without kicking a single butt!"
~ Tommy Dawkins, describing Ghandi, Big Wolf On Campus

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#243 2008-11-02 07:41:49

isafos
Member
From: Dementia.
Registered: 2008-10-21
Posts: 153

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

Live and let live, agree to disagree. Whatever. I'm done with this train, it's been de-railed.
I've got the same taste in my mouth from this as the last time I ate duck.

I frigging abhor duck.

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#244 2008-11-02 07:58:18

lupen the wolf
Member
From: Kentucky
Registered: 2008-10-29
Posts: 162

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

Mmmm, duck.


ego sum quis ego sum....

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#245 2008-11-02 08:01:29

lupen the wolf
Member
From: Kentucky
Registered: 2008-10-29
Posts: 162

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

The content of the last 2 pages I actualy know somthing about (which is rare), but it looks like I missed the good part. *Sigh*


ego sum quis ego sum....

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#246 2008-11-02 10:07:02

WritingWulf
Member
From: Wisconsin
Registered: 2007-11-16
Posts: 5645

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

Damn...I think I would have had fun in the last three pages hmm. Until it turned religious...then I would have just dived right in.

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#247 2008-11-02 10:18:14

WritingWulf
Member
From: Wisconsin
Registered: 2007-11-16
Posts: 5645

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

isafos wrote:

Oh lord, yes, I am most definitely going to contest this.

The Gaia hypothesis: the belief that Terra, our planet, is a superorganism. Proposed by 'Doctor' James Lovelock, purportedly a scientist. It's a hunk of science theory that has been adopted by new agers and the kind of people that sell incense at your local market, also, environmentalists who know nothing about it. But it's been almost entirely shunned by the serious scientific community, drawing the legendary Richard Dawkins as one of it's main critics. Let us not forget: environmentalists aren't scientists. They're ultimately a bunch of greenthumbs that go and chain themselves to trees, they've adopted it because it gives them an excuse to chain themselves to more trees and scream Gaia more. They don't need to know about it, it's just a theory that conforms with their pathetic attempts.

This is only a theory, because Lovelock has no tangible proof. He's just mentioned a couple of interesting, yet-unsolved anomalies and claimed that they are proof. That's the same as claiming post-mortem resuscitation as proof of god. It's a fallacy.

The Gaia hypothesis that I just mentioned, if you read about it, it's all 'biospheres' and talking about the environment working (subconsciously?) together as a whole, instead of being a number of disparate working elements that just happen to compliment some of each other, on the occasion. The wikipedia article uses so much scientific jargon that it's almost believeable to the un-educated of the subject.
Because, he has a scientific basis.

The Gaia hypothesis isn't what you're talking about.

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Planet-Is … ;id=142328
http://www.adishakti.org/our_conscious_earth.htm

Interesting how lots of these people seem to be of the opinion that 'understanding' of this concept is beyond human dimensional thought, yet somehow they've managed to write down this concept and likely make quite a bit of money out of the custom T-shirts.

This is your first warning, as a mod here I will not have you insulting others for their beliefs. Debate all you want, do NOT ever, insult someone on here for their beliefs. Guess what, you just ran into one of those "greenthumbs". If you keep this up I will have you banned. This is your first warning.

Last edited by WritingWulf (2008-11-02 10:19:04)

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#248 2008-11-02 11:24:37

rexwolf
Member
Registered: 2008-09-18
Posts: 231

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

I'm failing to see how Isafos insulted anyone.  He may have offended, but I don't see insults.

Sorry, I disagree with him, he offends me intensely, and I don't like him one bit either, but I see no reason to ban him.


Dammit, I hate being right sometimes.  But one thing people need to understand is that people like Isafos want and need attention.  They thrive on it.  And they go to great lenghts to get it.  They comment on every topic; often countering the running opinion even if they agree with it, simply to raise hairs, to get attention.

If he offends you, as he has me; just ignore him, and point out the flaws in his arguments when you see them.  But if you're going to just sit and argue with him, you're just going to feed the monster, and fuel his flames.  Continue to respond to him, and you'll continue to be offended.

He pushed my buttons too far, as I pointed out somewhere on this forum; and thus I will NOT be responding to him, because I have a mission, and that is to try to help everyone see how important wolves are, and how they need our support and help.  And Isafos, by his words, revealed he is beyond convincing, that he is so stubborn and unethical, that he lumped himself in the category of people I have come to understand are a group whose voice will only fade as they die off and thus must be ignored patiently until they do.


Bottom line: just because he's stooping to propaganda buzzwords that misname already misnamed groups (I despise being labeled anything, including an "environmentalist"), and just because his labels offend you, doesn't mean he's insulting you.  Sure, the result of both are the same - you being offended; but he didn't insult anyone directly.  Don't ban him - just don't pay attention to him.  Better yet, challenge his arguments, and debase them as they are largely just as flawed and pointless as those he professes to be countering.

Last edited by rexwolf (2008-11-02 11:32:33)


Because Wolves deserve better

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#249 2008-11-02 11:28:05

FenrirVik
Space Cowboy
From: Home
Registered: 2007-11-13
Posts: 5368

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

I think it was the greenthumb thing talking about how people who worship Gaia are (stupid?) I don't know.


Synchronicity

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#250 2008-11-02 14:07:30

WolfVanZandt
Member
From: Broomfield, Colorado
Registered: 2004-09-01
Posts: 4721
Website

Re: Am I a Werewolf/Therian?

Ah, and I don't worship Gaea - I simply believe that she exists and do so because I've experienced her presence. Again, there is nothing religious about my beliefs in respect to Gaea. I believe that she exists much as I believe that anyone else I have met exists.

The reason I don't get involved in that particular debate is that anyone that has studied logic above a high school level should have learned that you cannot prove the existence of any individual entity or event via deductive logic, and to prove the probability of existence requires the entity or event to be present so you can physically point at it and say, "there it is."

Asking me to prove that Gaea, God, or George Bush exists over the Internet is futile. it can't be done and the reason it can't be done has absolutely nothing to do with their existence or nonexistence but only the nature of proof.

For instance, take a hypothetical argument. Assume, only for the sake of argument, that Gaea does exist. What possible argument can be presented that would ever prove her existence.

Science is statistical. It presents information about categories - not individuals. It can tell you that the average human body temperature is 98.6 degrees F. but it cannot tell you what my own average temperature is.

If it looks in the right direction, it may be able to tell something about shards in general (which I believe to be an energy transfer phenomena - not spiritual), but it will never be able to say anything about Gaea, specifically; or Coyote, or any individual power animal, or any other shard. it will have to broaden it's horizons though to look in the right direction.

And, finally, I am very drastically constrained by what Montana alluded to - most of shamanism cannot be shared in verbal language. Only through shared experience can shamanic and spiritual experiences be understood between two people. Verbal language and science are both limited. Science has begun to chart out the limits of reality beyond which it cannot ever go. There are asymptotes of scientific knowledge. Science is an incomplete system in the Godel sense and it is a limited system in it's own sense.

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